Paying Developers?

So per the TOS we are not allowed to pay people for services related to FiveM. Now in order to do this in the most legit way possible and it doesn’t back fire in the end and get my server blacklisted. If I find a developer and he builds a script and/or helps me with a script. Can I donate some coins his way for the support? Can someone from FiveM, chime in?

Thanks,
Payton.

No, payment to developers for services they provide (creations, works etc.) is not allowed…

This I would not have the most educated answer with. I’d say you could donate to anyone, but in your context, that just sounds like another word for pay “Lets ‘donate’ the same amount as we regularly would”. This I could not give you the best answer for. Maybe a member of @moderation can help you with that further…

Seems to me the TOS is very vauge on this and it seems as though alot of people have misconceptions about it.

No financial profit shall be derived by the Users from any derivative of, or third-party service,
User Generated Content, or Game Server for FiveM, the Game Services, or other entities
stated in these Terms, except as expressly permitted by CitizenFX. Entities with permission
may be included under ADDENDUM D: LIST OF EXCEPTIONS FOR TERM ‘8’.

A script developer making a product for you for a fivem server doesn’t fall under any of the words used in that statement.

I am not a lawyer, but to me that reads: Don’t sell whats not yours (I.E. Fivem Server files, Source code, someone elses Releases etc. Not about making scripts to sell to a community or a member of a community

There is also this line

Don’t try to make money off FiveM. Not even your game services. Covering costs incurred from
third parties (server rent, product licensing, …) is fine, however any additional profit (including
‘donations’ other than to cover immediate costs) is not

seems to me like server owners just cant profit. using donations or money made from the server to pay developers seems okay from the way that is worded to me. but once again i am not a legal expert.

OPINION ZONE

FiveM is already in a legally gray area, I imagine the TOS is worded as vaguely as it is to try and help cover the elements from legal pursuits from T2.

Do i think that fivem has a right to say what server owners can pay to have created for the community or their own server? - No

Do i think its wrong to assume that everyone interested in the development community will work for “free” basically - Yes… i do very much so

Do i think it is a violation of the TOS to make money off of a product produced for a group of people or a single person? - No Not at all. Especially under the very vaugely worded (non binding) document that is the "TOS"

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Said product would be “User Generated Content”. How hard is that to realize?

Game Servers (listed on the Game Services, or otherwise utilized using FiveM) may download
content (hereafter “User Generated Content”) to, or run computer code on the Users’ device.
The User Generated Content is copyrighted by their respective owner, and the provider of Game
Servers asserts that they are authorized to transfer said content to the Users, and, allows
CitizenFX to distribute, adapt and/or modify the User Generated Content through automated
systems.
8. No financial profit shall be derived by the Users from any derivative of, or third-party service,
User Generated Content, or Game Server for FiveM, the Game Services, or other entities
stated in these Terms, except as expressly permitted by CitizenFX. Entities with permission
may be included under ADDENDUM D: LIST OF EXCEPTIONS FOR TERM ‘8’.

You may want to review the wording here. this doesn’t hold much water. specifically

No financial profit shall be derived by the Users from any derivative of, or third-party service,
User Generated Content, or Game Server for FiveM, the Game Services, or other entities

Also. Just because its in the TOS doesn’t mean every single model maker or script developer is going to read said TOS, Its not exactly plastered infront of your face. you have to seek it out and that usually doesn’t bode well legally, it must be clearly stated infront of the users face and they must press an I accept button to be legally binding from my understanding of how united states law works.

Edit: on further review there is a button on the client download page for the TOS but still, my point stands about some people not reading the TOS before grabbing the client or just writing some code for it

Also. its stated that you allow the author of code (or models) to keep copyrights on their work. ok so why is it then a problem if we license out said work to people? some of us can’t do this for free. at the very least developers should be allowed to claim donations for their work…

Personally i would like to see a change in these terms of service, Claim yourselves as a service provider and wipe hands of responsibility for people monetizing mods for servers. i am in no way advocating for paid access to servers but i do think that developers (be that code or models) should be able to be (donated to) or request profit for the creation (and betterment) of the community. those paid scripts eventually are leaked to the public (or are released after a community looses its popularity) anyway so whatever is made most likely will end up public at some point anyway…

I just find it silly that if i spend hours of my time working on a project for someone that i cant make a dime off of it because someone said so. i wrote the code. i should be able to charge for a license to that code (and if i make an agreement to hold rights to that project) release it as i see fit…

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To whom exactly - pedants who want to go ‘waah but I DIDN’T KNOW I COULDN’T’? We have the right of freely choosing who we deal with, if we block you, your server, your resources or whatever, there’s no need to answer to anyone. That’s the point of terms of service: as long as anything is not very much unreasonable (and the inability to profit from a service is not on such a list of unreasonable terms), the service provider may choose to restrict anyone from using their service - in this case any of the public game services required for using the FiveM modification.

No need for any of this to be ‘legally binding’ since those specific claims needn’t ever end up in court for us to be able to enforce them, since any such content will eventually have to go through our platform.

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Ever tried to download the client? Right… :wink:

I’m an idiot, I can’t read. But either way, just because someone “doesn’t read” a ToS, doesn’t mean it’s not valid. Players clearly and consciously accept these terms when they download the client. In other words, any player automatically has to abide by these terms. Of course, just like with any ToS, people don’t tend to read them, myself included. Doesn’t mean it’s not legally binding though.

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The OP PMed me. Seeming it went a tad off-topic and into more of a discourse. For the OP, would be good for a staff member to give an answer, and not from another source as that cant be verified as well I guess. So I guess in a simple yes/no

Seeming its asked a lot would be good to have a good reference topic in my list that’s from staff :stuck_out_tongue:

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Since any such content will eventually have to go through our platform.

Not Really, I mean developers could always seek other unnamed platforms (or maybe even start another) if they really wanted a fix.

Really though to sum up my point, i think its best for the fivem community if the TOS was relaxed a bit in the sense of developers being paid to license out their work to servers, that could technically fall under server expenses and it can help the fivem community in the longrun in the sense of giving incentive to push fivem outside of the bounds of just roleplay servers (of course those will be created im sure) Making it not allowed just pushes it underground and prevents the community from actually being able to get access to these scripts and models

at the very least. let developers put a donation button or a kofi link for some spare change if someone wants to throw it along with releases, may not be as much but hey its something better than nothing

I believe it was said in an #announcements that it was being looked at. The whole concept of paying Devs has pros and many cons. For example: In my knowledge of other script Devs and vehicle modelers, people already sell scripts and cars that are not theirs (usually decrypted) so if there’s enough of it when it’s not allowed, how about when it is? There’s many factors that play in both pros and cons.

As someone like myself and have seen people selling my AOP script for 200 USD when it’s already public, is painful enough haha.

If it goes into effect (which it has been brought up) then the forums will definitely need more moderation and enforcement on that. I close enough topics and I’m sure out of the Australian timezone there’s a lot more that gets closed by mods…

So factors both ways…

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Piracy and leaking will happen. People will steal models/scripts and sell them. it happens everywhere as you can see now. Publishing them in a centralized place authorized by fivem would help limit that stuff too though as it can be moderated. sure its intensive but i mean hey its possible.

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Everyone doesn’t fully understand Lua or want to. Therefore they refer to others for help. (Mostly thru begging on this forum) Although I don’t see how you can get someone to help you without a form of support. This is past the days of offering 1337 AdMINz LeVEL for a “script”. Whether Lua is easy or not these guys have took the time to understand it and have spent hours getting very proficient. If they help me add a “House Script” to my server I want to support them.

Yes. I know there are some releases on the forums for Roleplay Servers but that is why when you log into 10 servers, 8 contains the same script. My last role play gaming was SA-MP I want to create a similar experience in a FiveM server.

I know that communities probably already pay for scripts and cars. But everything has a paper trail. I wouldn’t want to have a disagreement with a developer only to have him hop on FiveM and show screenshots of donation and try to use that against me or my server.

So I’m the end. If someone helps me. And I send them a donation, am I at risk for having my server blacklisted?

I would say that one could re-imburse a coder for time spent working on a script. Thats not making a profit per default.

The Minecraft community had similar problems and got harshly regulated by Notch before his exit, as some servers monetized every aspect of his game.

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Like Faxes mentioned, in an announcement a while back exactly this was brought up.

FiveM is looking for ways to lighten the “no profit” rule. One discussion that has taken place in the Discord is some sort of “marketplace” but until something like this happens, it is how it is; no profit to be made.

That includes “donating coins” as OP initially asked.

Personally I look forward to it but until then everyone must respect the decisions that have been made until now regarding this and not go on some angry tantrum. You definitely have discussed in a civilized manner, but a lot of others have not in other topics and places

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You do have some limited amount of risk of that happening, yes.

Like I said in my reply before this, it is how it is right now. Respect it and well have to wait and see if it will change.

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https://runtime.fivem.net/fivem-service-agreement-2.pdf

  1. No financial profit shall be derived by the Users from any derivative of, or third-party service, User Generated Content, or Game Server for FiveM, the Game Services, or other entities stated in these Terms, except as expressly permitted by CitizenFX. Entities with permission may be included under ADDENDUM D: LIST OF EXCEPTIONS FOR TERM ‘8’.

 

I’m not a lawyer. This is not meant to be taken as advice of any kind. The following is personal interpretation, and/or personal opinion, and/or hypothetical viewpoints. They are general in nature and not to be taken as advice in any way, you should seek advice elsewhere.

 

One potential viewpoint might be that since “Users” isn’t defined in the TOS as blocking non-human legal entities from becoming “Users” then it might be valid for any non-human legal entity to become a “User” without breaking the TOS.
(hypothetically, this might allow a development corporation, legally registered as a non-human entity, to take payments for development related to FiveM if all payments are used toward covering all of their expenses; no payment kept as profit as to potentially not break the TOS)

 

Another potential viewpoint might be that if a developer being paid isn’t a “User” under this TOS, then you might be able to pay those developers without breaking TOS.
(hypothetically, you might not be breaking TOS if you can figure out how your paid developers would develop their code without becoming a “User”… good luck on the whole debugging/testing phase of development, heh)